As Ian H is on holiday until next week I thought I'd get the ball rolling.
This is what he's saying:
Related to our 3D Workshop, we need to be sure that each computers are 3D enabled. (if not it will be, as you could guess, a bit harder…)
Could be done, on your own, in two steps:
1) Check with a recent navigator (latest Chrome or Firefox) that this page display 3D (should be a 3D torus):
on each computer host
http://stemkoski.github.io/Three.js/Graphulus-Surface.html
2) Install extra package to Virtual Box (to handle 3D acceleration), if not already present on each hosts.
http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/4.2.16/Oracle_VM_VirtualBox_Extension_Pack-4.2.16-86992.vbox-extpack
Thanks in advance,
Available to any question till this Sunday,
(then AFK, so ask Vincent if needed)
From what he says in his message and his original submission it looks like he needs PCs that can run Virtual Box 4.2.x that are capable of rendering 3D graphics. Can you check if that's going to be possible in Trent B16 or if we are going to require laptops (although there are 43 delegates so that may be a challenge).
Thanks,
Matt.
Jeremy Morley on August 22, 2013:
Urgh - the only machines set up to run Virtual Box are the PCs in B26e in the Sir Clive Granger.
Guys, like I've said several times, anything that doesn't involve running off a Live DVD (or at a push Live USB) of some sort means having to log into the machine on our network and this means registering the workshop participants, pretty much now with our IS group as their service delivery time is not instant.
Could we start a doc/spreadsheet somewhere with a list of workshops and their particular requirements? Is it worth polling each workshop leader to check that they're just running of Live, and if not what they are planning on doing? And perhaps point out that the only "supported" environment is a live one....?
I'm seriously worried about this now, that there's going to be complete chaos because all these guys think they can just log in and perhaps even install software or have it mysteriously appear on the machine...
Jeremy
Matt Walker on August 22, 2013:
Jeremy,
Agreed that it's a worry especially at this stage. I'll look to pull a spreadsheet together before the weekend based on the original workshop submissions (I'm then away on holiday Sat to Wed). Hopefully Ian can pick up with the presenters next week.
Matt.
Jeremy Morley on August 22, 2013:
Matt,
The Trent building lab is in use at the moment for resits so I've tried the first test (the in-browser 3D) on the machines in the Hallward lab. IE8 doesn't display it, but Chrome is also on the machine and displays it fine & interactively. The machine is an Core i3-2100 3.1GHz with 4GB RAM and Win7 32-bit. The others in the lab look to be all of the same level. (It's Chrome 28.0.1500.95 m which isn't the latest, I think).
Virtual Box is definitely -not- on the machines in this lab and would, I suspect, be very difficult to get installed. I guess they can't do without?
Do they absolutely have to have log-in access to the Windows on the machine? If so, I need the list of participants asap - I'll check with IS what details they need to register people. But please try to dissuade them needing this access!
Jeremy
Matt Walker on August 23, 2013:
Hi Jeremy,
I've pulled together a spreadsheet with my view as to whether a LiveDVD can be used for each presentation. Do you have an email associated with a Google Account that I can use to share it with you?
Matt.
Ian Edwards on August 23, 2013:
My understanding from Olivier's email is that as long as the machine is capable of 3D they do not need to log into Windows on any of the machines - they will be able to work directly from the Live DVD using the hardware's 3D capability and the browser included with OSGeo Live.
However, If the 3D example does not run on the machines, then they are asking to be able to log in every user and run a modified version of Virtual Box. This sounds very difficult to arrange successfully.
To get a definitive answer, I would boot one of the machines with a copy of OSGeo live and check that the demo works from the Live disc:
OK, would someone mind confirming with them that this is the case?
I ran the Graphulus test in the Hallward cluster and it worked fine. The Trent machines will be of a similar standard but it will have to wait till the 3rd before I can test because the room is in use for resit exams before then.
Jeremy
Matt Walker on August 23, 2013:
Thanks Jeremy I'll get in touch with Olivier now.
Matt Walker on August 23, 2013:
Hi Jeremy,
I've heard back from Olivier and he's keen on using VirtualBox due to performance:
Both VirtualBox and LiveDVD are desperately slow with 3D
But LiveDVD is worst, from our prior tests
So yes using a VirtualBox (with the extra package) is really recommended.
Maybe we need to tell Olivier what we can offer at this point in the run up to the event rather than chasing around trying to reconfigure loads of machines? He should have thought of this earlier
Jeremy Morley on September 3, 2013:
Any decision on this? I'd need to start now if we want to stand any chance of getting virtual box on the machines.
Also, do we want to simply apply for a number (e.g ~120) of temporary log-ins as a backup? I think I can get some without needing names in advance - we'd keep a register.
Ian Edwards on September 3, 2013:
Jeremy - I can't find the correct thread to ask this- but is the issue with access to the Hallwood library resolved, and do we know that we can boot from USB in the room? I've also been asked to check that people will be able to use their own laptops - will there be WiFi available?
Jeremy Morley on September 3, 2013:
Ian: yes, access to Hallward is resolved. Boot from USB (or indeed DVD) still to be checked but will be done before the weekend (I need to get and make a Live 7.0 installation).
Bringing own laptop: ok, can connect via UoN-Guest network in a lab. Should be ok but not recommended I'd say.
Matt: I've double checked room B16 in Trent which is fine (I'll post a panorama later of the room). On the machine I tried in the room (the instructor PC) the 3D torus example ran fine in Chrome.
Machine details: Core i3-3240 3.24GZ, 4GB RAM, 32-bit Windows 7 Enterprise Chrome version: 29.0.1547.57 m (not sure if it autoupdates).
I'm off to check B26e issues now! Jeremy
Jeremy Morley on September 11, 2013:
Trent B16 does -not- have Virtual Box and won't. The only lab with Virtual Box (see other To Dos) is Clive Granger B26e, and that is version 4.1 without additional packages. It won't be upgraded in time.
There's a version of VirtualBox that runnable from USB: http://www.vbox.me that may fit but we've never tried - any of the labs will do 3D ok on the physical machine, I think B29 has the highest spec machines, B26e the lowest.
Jeremy Morley on September 12, 2013:
I'm currently downloading portable versions of Chrome and Virtual Box that can run of USB drives. When I test the BIOS settings tomorrow I'll have a go at running these apps of USB stick. It may be we can allow VirtualBox 4.2 with the 3D add-on to run of stick with the machine logged into Windows. I don't think we'll actually need Chrome Portable as Chrome should be installed on all PCs we're using by Monday.
Jeremy Morley on September 12, 2013:
OK, well I have a 2GB stick with the Portable Virtual Box that I can test on Friday. This is just the "basic" up-to-date version of VirtualBox (in 32-bit and 64-bit architectures). I've not explored how to install the 3D add-on when it's in the portable format.
I also have a 16GB stick (the sort I use in my teaching). A small hitch is that in FAT32 format the virtual disk won't go on the drive (larger than the file size limit). I'll see how it goes with using NTFS on the stick (not usually recommended).
Is this actually worth pursuing for this event? (It's interesting to me anyway for the teaching).
Matt Walker on September 12, 2013:
Hi Jeremy,
Unfortunately (given the amount of time available) I think it probably is. I've been pretty clear that we can't get the extension pack installed in B26 E but they are pretty adamant that they need it... This is my last exchange with Oliver:
Le 12 sept. 2013 à 10:51, Matt Walker a écrit :
Hi Oliver,
I'm
afraid we will not be able to get the extension pack installed, I
requested it last week but was told it was out of the question.
Performances will be really poor so
using a VM for 3D is already a bottleneck in itself,
without 3D acceleration we could not be sure how it will react
I think they are happier installing Chrome as it is part of the standard
build for other labs. If you have VirtualBox and Chrome on the host
would it be possible to work in VirtualBox and view the results using
Chrome on the host?
For WebGL yes, that's the aim
but for OpenGL/OSG no.
(and that's the main part with QGIS)
So if you could ask again (and have a yes) it will be really appreciated
:)
Jeremy Morley on September 12, 2013:
Matt,
Screenshot attached - 3D torus example running in Firefox in Live 7.0 in Portable Virtual Box 4.2.18 with the extension pack (for 4.2.18). The VM is configured with 32GB video memory & 3D acceleration on. The torus is easily & smoothly manipulated!
This is on my Acer laptop - it has a 3D graphics card (ie for a 3D display) which will help but limited system memory so the VM only has 1178MB. The physical machine feels a little sluggish but is usable! (It's an i3 M370 @ 2.4GHz) running 64-bit Win 7 Enterprise. (The Live 7.0 VM is only 32-bit though).
Three things: - firstly I need to test it in one of our clusters from Windows (I'll do that before going home I think). The Potable VirtualBox triggers a Windows system message about access to the computer - this is probably blocked on our systems for ordinary users so we'd be screwed, sadly. - Someone will have to duplicate USB keys. This will -not- be me! However I can provide an image of my drive as it stands for someone to do the work using Clonezilla (my duplicator of choice - tested over a number of classes, etc.). I'm using a 16GB Kensington DataTraveler 100 G2 drive, formatted in NTFS. - I must follow up on the associate account access so we can actually log people into the Windows machines.
Let me do the test in a local cluster before you say anything to Olivier.
As I feared, Portable VirtualBox won't run because it needs admin rights to be able to hook into the OS interrupts (I presume) to do mouse & keyboard capture, share resources, etc. The machines are locked down to need a password to do this.
However, I do have yet another rabbit to pull out of my hat. We have the laptops booked from Horizon which will be available to us from Monday. Those will be able to run Portable VB (theoretically they could have Virtual Box actually installed but due to time and system stability I'd not go there).
I think the best we can do is set him up in one of our spare rooms (probably Humanities A1) with the laptops & Portable VB. HOWEVER, he will have to duplicate enough USB drives for this & test with his system on Monday.
How's that?
Also, does he also need Internet access for his workshop?! That could get a little tricky on the guest wifi. His risk though.
Matt Walker on September 12, 2013:
Thanks for all of your work on this Jeremy. I think moving them and using the Horizon laptops could just work. I suspect they will require internet access but I'd say that's secondary to VirtualBox / 3D acceleration.
How may laptops do we have from Horizon? The workshop has 45 delegates signed up!
I'll get back to Oliver now give him his options and let him know that I'll confirm number of laptops tomorrow, there is only so much we can do...
Cheers,
Matt.
Jeremy Morley on September 12, 2013:
20 odd, I'll check. Definitely two to a machine!
Jeremy Morley on September 13, 2013:
Re. B26e - I've checked, Chrome is now on (at least on the machine I tried) & runs the 3D torus example without problems.
Virtual Box is still 4.1.0. I checked & tried installing the add-on pack but it fails because it does need administrator permissions.
So B26e is feasible & they may just have to live with the compromise. Easier than trying to move the laptops between campuses, etc. Still, I may try the VM-on-a-stick for this year's version of my classes!!
Comments
Matt Walker on August 22, 2013:
Olivier Courtin who is running http://2013.foss4g.org/conf/programme/workshops/14/ has been in touch via the workshops list about facilities (http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/conference-workshops/2013-August/000477.html).
As Ian H is on holiday until next week I thought I'd get the ball rolling.
This is what he's saying:
Related to our 3D Workshop, we need to be sure that each computers are 3D enabled. (if not it will be, as you could guess, a bit harder…) Could be done, on your own, in two steps: 1) Check with a recent navigator (latest Chrome or Firefox) that this page display 3D (should be a 3D torus): on each computer host http://stemkoski.github.io/Three.js/Graphulus-Surface.html 2) Install extra package to Virtual Box (to handle 3D acceleration), if not already present on each hosts. http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/4.2.16/Oracle_VM_VirtualBox_Extension_Pack-4.2.16-86992.vbox-extpack Thanks in advance, Available to any question till this Sunday, (then AFK, so ask Vincent if needed)From what he says in his message and his original submission it looks like he needs PCs that can run Virtual Box 4.2.x that are capable of rendering 3D graphics. Can you check if that's going to be possible in Trent B16 or if we are going to require laptops (although there are 43 delegates so that may be a challenge).
Thanks,
Matt.
Jeremy Morley on August 22, 2013:
Guys, like I've said several times, anything that doesn't involve running off a Live DVD (or at a push Live USB) of some sort means having to log into the machine on our network and this means registering the workshop participants, pretty much now with our IS group as their service delivery time is not instant.
Could we start a doc/spreadsheet somewhere with a list of workshops and their particular requirements? Is it worth polling each workshop leader to check that they're just running of Live, and if not what they are planning on doing? And perhaps point out that the only "supported" environment is a live one....?
I'm seriously worried about this now, that there's going to be complete chaos because all these guys think they can just log in and perhaps even install software or have it mysteriously appear on the machine...
Jeremy
Matt Walker on August 22, 2013:
Agreed that it's a worry especially at this stage. I'll look to pull a spreadsheet together before the weekend based on the original workshop submissions (I'm then away on holiday Sat to Wed). Hopefully Ian can pick up with the presenters next week.
Matt.
Jeremy Morley on August 22, 2013:
The Trent building lab is in use at the moment for resits so I've tried the first test (the in-browser 3D) on the machines in the Hallward lab. IE8 doesn't display it, but Chrome is also on the machine and displays it fine & interactively. The machine is an Core i3-2100 3.1GHz with 4GB RAM and Win7 32-bit. The others in the lab look to be all of the same level. (It's Chrome 28.0.1500.95 m which isn't the latest, I think).
Virtual Box is definitely -not- on the machines in this lab and would, I suspect, be very difficult to get installed. I guess they can't do without?
Do they absolutely have to have log-in access to the Windows on the machine? If so, I need the list of participants asap - I'll check with IS what details they need to register people. But please try to dissuade them needing this access!
Jeremy
Matt Walker on August 23, 2013:
I've pulled together a spreadsheet with my view as to whether a LiveDVD can be used for each presentation. Do you have an email associated with a Google Account that I can use to share it with you?
Matt.
Ian Edwards on August 23, 2013:
However, If the 3D example does not run on the machines, then they are asking to be able to log in every user and run a modified version of Virtual Box. This sounds very difficult to arrange successfully.
To get a definitive answer, I would boot one of the machines with a copy of OSGeo live and check that the demo works from the Live disc:
Jeremy Morley on August 23, 2013:
I ran the Graphulus test in the Hallward cluster and it worked fine. The Trent machines will be of a similar standard but it will have to wait till the 3rd before I can test because the room is in use for resit exams before then.
Jeremy
Matt Walker on August 23, 2013:
Matt Walker on August 23, 2013:
I've heard back from Olivier and he's keen on using VirtualBox due to performance:
I wonder if running VirtualBox via USB may be an option (such as http://www.maketecheasier.com/install-virtualbox-in-usb/2010/01/02). They could potentially then run PostGIS etc. in VirtualBox and use the host Chrome?
Steven Feldman on August 24, 2013:
Jeremy Morley on September 3, 2013:
Also, do we want to simply apply for a number (e.g ~120) of temporary log-ins as a backup? I think I can get some without needing names in advance - we'd keep a register.
Ian Edwards on September 3, 2013:
access to the Hallwood library resolved, and do we know that we can boot
from USB in the room? I've also been asked to check that people will be
able to use their own laptops - will there be WiFi available?
Jeremy Morley on September 3, 2013:
Bringing own laptop: ok, can connect via UoN-Guest network in a lab. Should be ok but not recommended I'd say.
Matt: I've double checked room B16 in Trent which is fine (I'll post a panorama later of the room). On the machine I tried in the room (the instructor PC) the 3D torus example ran fine in Chrome.
Machine details: Core i3-3240 3.24GZ, 4GB RAM, 32-bit Windows 7 Enterprise
Chrome version: 29.0.1547.57 m (not sure if it autoupdates).
I'm off to check B26e issues now!
Jeremy
Jeremy Morley on September 11, 2013:
There's a version of VirtualBox that runnable from USB: http://www.vbox.me that may fit but we've never tried - any of the labs will do 3D ok on the physical machine, I think B29 has the highest spec machines, B26e the lowest.
Jeremy Morley on September 12, 2013:
Jeremy Morley on September 12, 2013:
I also have a 16GB stick (the sort I use in my teaching). A small hitch is that in FAT32 format the virtual disk won't go on the drive (larger than the file size limit). I'll see how it goes with using NTFS on the stick (not usually recommended).
Is this actually worth pursuing for this event? (It's interesting to me anyway for the teaching).
Matt Walker on September 12, 2013:
Unfortunately (given the amount of time available) I think it probably is. I've been pretty clear that we can't get the extension pack installed in B26 E but they are pretty adamant that they need it... This is my last exchange with Oliver:
Jeremy Morley on September 12, 2013:
Screenshot attached - 3D torus example running in Firefox in Live 7.0 in Portable Virtual Box 4.2.18 with the extension pack (for 4.2.18). The VM is configured with 32GB video memory & 3D acceleration on. The torus is easily & smoothly manipulated!
This is on my Acer laptop - it has a 3D graphics card (ie for a 3D display) which will help but limited system memory so the VM only has 1178MB. The physical machine feels a little sluggish but is usable! (It's an i3 M370 @ 2.4GHz) running 64-bit Win 7 Enterprise. (The Live 7.0 VM is only 32-bit though).
Three things:
- firstly I need to test it in one of our clusters from Windows (I'll do that before going home I think). The Potable VirtualBox triggers a Windows system message about access to the computer - this is probably blocked on our systems for ordinary users so we'd be screwed, sadly.
- Someone will have to duplicate USB keys. This will -not- be me! However I can provide an image of my drive as it stands for someone to do the work using Clonezilla (my duplicator of choice - tested over a number of classes, etc.). I'm using a 16GB Kensington DataTraveler 100 G2 drive, formatted in NTFS.
- I must follow up on the associate account access so we can actually log people into the Windows machines.
Let me do the test in a local cluster before you say anything to Olivier.
Jeremy
Jeremy Morley on September 12, 2013:
However, I do have yet another rabbit to pull out of my hat. We have the laptops booked from Horizon which will be available to us from Monday. Those will be able to run Portable VB (theoretically they could have Virtual Box actually installed but due to time and system stability I'd not go there).
I think the best we can do is set him up in one of our spare rooms (probably Humanities A1) with the laptops & Portable VB. HOWEVER, he will have to duplicate enough USB drives for this & test with his system on Monday.
How's that?
Also, does he also need Internet access for his workshop?! That could get a little tricky on the guest wifi. His risk though.
Matt Walker on September 12, 2013:
How may laptops do we have from Horizon? The workshop has 45 delegates signed up!
I'll get back to Oliver now give him his options and let him know that I'll confirm number of laptops tomorrow, there is only so much we can do...
Cheers,
Matt.
Jeremy Morley on September 12, 2013:
Jeremy Morley on September 13, 2013:
Virtual Box is still 4.1.0. I checked & tried installing the add-on pack but it fails because it does need administrator permissions.
So B26e is feasible & they may just have to live with the compromise. Easier than trying to move the laptops between campuses, etc. Still, I may try the VM-on-a-stick for this year's version of my classes!!